October 20, 2008
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Consider the following…
One thing that has come up a lot, at least in my tiny circles, regarding the election is the issue of abortion, and both candidate’s stances on it. Basically, McCain is more pro-life, while Obama is more pro-choice. What terrifies me is the Freedom of Choice Act, which Obama is very much in support of. While wikipedia is perhaps not the most reliable source of information, I think that in this instance it will suffice:
The Freedom of Choice Act (H.R. 3719/S. 2020) is a bill in the United States Congress which, if enacted, would abolish all restrictions and limitations on the right of women in the United States to have an abortion, whether at the State or Federal level. Sponsored in the House of Representatives by Congressman Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., and originally co-sponsored by Congressman James Greenwood, R-Penn., Congresswoman Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y., and Congresswoman Diana Degette, D-Colo., and in the Senate by Senator Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., and originally co-sponsored by Sen. Jon Corzine, D-N.J., Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., Sen. Jim Jeffords, I-Vt., Sen. Joseph Lieberman, I-Conn., Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif., Sen. Paul Sarbanes, D-Md., and Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., the bill was introduced in the United States House of Representatives on Jan. 21, 2004, and in the United States Senate on Jan. 22, 2004. The bills were referred to the Judiciary Committees of their respective Houses.
Described by NARAL Pro-Choice America president Nancy Keenan as a bill to simply “codify Roe v. Wade,”[1] opponents of the bill point out[2] that it would, if passed, invalidate every restriction on the abortion of a fetus before the stage of viability, even those previously found consistent with Roe v. Wade by the United States Supreme Court, such as parental notification laws, waiting periods, requirements of full disclosure of the physical and emotional risks inherent in abortion, or restrictions on certain late-term abortion techniques (lifting the ban on partial birth abortions*). In addition, it would force the repeal of the Hyde Amendment, which restricts the use of Federal funding for abortions, and invalidate the ability of religiously-based hospitals or clinics to refuse to perform abortions based on the violation of their consciences.
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., the Democrat 2008 Presidential candidate, who has become a co-sponsor of the Senate version of the bill, announced in a speech before The Planned Parenthood Action Fund on July 17, 2007, “The first thing I’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That’s the first thing that I’d do.”[3]
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., the Republican 2008 Presidential candidate, who supports overturning Roe v. Wade[4], opposes the bill.
*I have added this parenthetical to offer an example of one such technique, currently abolished, that would be reinstated.
Here is a video clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf0XIRZSTt8
The above act is the first thing he would sign as president.
Now, it may surprise you that I am not posting this blog to say that one cannot vote for Obama because he wants to make abortion easier to obtain and wants to undo everything done to try and rid America of abortion. I have posted the info on FOCA and the vid so that you better understand Obama’s view on abortion, because what I really wanted to post is a letter that I wrote, that he will probably never read. I hope that the points it raises provide some food for thought, as this is how I see the abortion “issue” from my Christian perspective. The main point I raise in my letter (I hope) is that I cannot understand how a person can claim to be Christian and yet support and not fight against abortion, which is completely non-Christian (again, in my view). Were Obama to read my letter, my hope would be that he would realize he has to make a decision: to be true to his confession of faith in Jesus Christ, or to forsake that and continue to ignore the intrinsic evil of abortion, which is not a single issue among issues, but is something of far greater importance.
October 19th, 2008
To the Honorable Barack Obama,
God’s abundant blessings upon you, your wife, and children!
May this letter find you in good health, as I imagine that the campaign trail wears you out very quickly! I very much hope that this letter reaches you, as I wish to share with you my great concern regarding the issue of abortion (please hear me out!), and I wished to offer you a perspective on the issue that you may not have considered before. I have come to know that you support abortion, the Freedom of Choice Act, etc., and it is my great hope that you support these things not because of bad intentions, but because your passion for helping people and for social justice has obscured some very important things.
You confess, Sir, that you are a Christian, and this brings me great joy. Having a Christian president, I believe, is absolutely essential for this country’s well-being. But what concerns me is that, from the way I understand human life, abortion directly contradicts a basic belief of all Christian people, and that to support abortion seems to me to not be Christian at all. Not only do I believe this country needs a Christian president, but it needs an authentic Christian president, witnessing the faith as truly as he or she can. Please do not feel that I am passing judgment on you! Rather, I wish to present my understanding that you might consider it and ponder in your own heart whether or not abortion has a place in a Christian’s life in Christ, a life that all Christians endeavor to live as best we can.
If the fetus is not a human being until born into the world, then I can certainly see how abortion can be acceptable, for all our moral obligations regarding harm and murder are based on the idea that we cannot harm or murder another human being. “Thou shalt not kill,” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If the fetus is not human, it cannot be killed and cannot be our neighbor.
However, if the fetus is not a human being, then neither was Jesus Christ a human being. For Jesus Christ, the one confessed by all Christians to be fully God and fully human, was also once a fetus in the womb of his mother. If he were not human until his birth, or even until a certain point in Mary’s pregnancy, then neither was he the Son of God until his birth, and this simply cannot be. In order for Jesus Christ to be fully-God and fully-man, he has to have been both from the moment of conception, and he was; so are we all.
The angel of God, Gabriel, who said not a word of his own, but rather only what God ordered him to say, said to Mary, “Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus…” Gabriel told Mary everything about Jesus, before he was conceived within her. Before his conception, it was made known that Jesus would have a name (Jesus), a gender (son = male), personhood (sons are people), an ancestry (the line of David), and a purpose (to rule over the house of Jacob, and an everlasting kingdom). God already had these things in mind for Jesus, and at the moment of Mary’s “yes” he was conceived, and in that moment he came to have them. God promised all of these things before Jesus’ conception; therefore Jesus had them at the very moment of it as well and after; they would not be promised and then reserved or activated at some later date; at birth for instance. These are all aspects of being human, being a living human being (“being” is an act, the act of existing and participating in existence). I have these things as well, albeit differently, as a 25 year-old man. If Jesus, being fully-man (and fully-God) had such things at the moment of his conception and after, then so did I, and so do we all, for we are all fully-human (inasmuch as we are not God). He had also a soul, the very Holy Spirit of God, for being God he would have the Spirit of God also and thus a soul and a complete being. He has been God from eternity, and he has been man since he entered the womb of Mary and was conceived in that instant, and not a moment later.
Who is to say that I did not also have a soul, from the moment of my conception? For if the Holy Spirit is the giver of all life, and being that the zygote is alive (for dead things cannot grow), would not the Spirit need to bless the zygote with life for it to be alive in the first place? Would it not be to destroy the future dwelling place of the Spirit, received at baptism, to abort or otherwise harm it?
This means that the very foundation of the Temple of the Spirit, which we call the human body, is the zygote, the conception, the union of sperm and egg that has the complete DNA and the life to bring a new human into the world. The zygote is the cornerstone of human existence and in this country and all over the world it is this cornerstone that is being utterly rejected, just as the world rejected the cornerstone of our faith and life Jesus Christ. How can anyone reject the very cornerstone of their being and yet stand? How can we build a people and country on such a belief?
Therefore, Sir, with all respect and Christian love I must say again that to be a Christian and find abortion acceptable is to deny the humanity of Jesus Christ, which is an essential belief one must hold in order to be Christian at all. Those who accept abortion and also confess being Christian are confessing either falsely or in error, and if you are in error I would seek to help you find truth, which is why I offer you this letter. I offer this also to say that, while one should not be a single-issue voter, I don’t see abortion as a single issue, for since all political issues are human problems (economy, environment, war, etc.) they are founded essentially on human life, which has its beginning at conception. Therefore abortion is not a single-issue among many issues, but is ultimately close to The Issue, that is, human life and preserving its dignity with “liberty and justice for all” from conception to natural death, so that all human beings in this country can enjoy the inalienable rights of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” these and more being brought to us from God by the Jesus Christ we must confess with our whole lives whether in the pew, in private prayer, or in the Oval Office. For if at the moment of conception a human person exists, then he or she is protected by the laws of God and of this nation which you have taken an oath to serve, and the rights of that person must be respected if the law is truly at the equal and just service of all people. I urge you to please choose life and therefore Jesus Christ.
May God bless you always and abundantly, Sir, may God bless America, and may His will be done through Jesus Christ on November 4th.
Given this, can a person support abortion and still be true to their faith in Jesus Christ?
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Comments (119)
Why that one block of text seems to be in a big white box, I do not know. But I didn’t intend it to be.
Nice work! Love the pic, very sad!
BRAVO!!!!!
May I plug this site???
I came here on a rec and I am glad I did. Amazing post and amazing letter!!
This is very well thought out and I agree with you in the fullest. I actually did an update about this a little while ago. It makes me really mad. Well done.
Please tell me you actually sent this letter.
I don’t know but I think Christ is more distraught about being in that picture. Seriously, why does that picture look like the viewer just took an eyeful of chlorine?
@Papillon_Mom - Absolutely.
@Zeke777G - I didn’t paint it, so I don’t know.
@TheNightManager - I wouldn’t even know where to send it. If you have a suggestion, let me know; I’ll totally do it.
“To reach the Campaign Headquarters by phone, please call: (866) 675-2008
You can contact us by mail at:
Obama for America
P.O. Box 8102
Chicago, IL 60680
Obama for America will only accept #10 envelopes. All other mail will be returned to sender.
Due to the high volume of mail Obama For America receives, we cannot guarantee the return of items sent to the campaign. In addition, we regret that Senator Obama cannot sign items requesting his autograph due to demands on his time.”
oh, Send it! It is sad that we have to remind professed Christians that the personhood of Christ intones our own.
another amazing post, my friend.
may the spirit always be strong in you, that you will always be inspired and to continue to inspire others.
Oh well done, well done.
yes they can and still remain “true to their faith in jesus christ”
i can
the actual question is can people question the faith of others around them and stay true to their own faith in jesus christ?
well written though, i understand what you’re saying.
Tch what a noob. Scientifically all babies start out as parasites in the womb. So fuck your “omg they’re human bull.” I say abort a fetus every minute to keep the over population problem in check. Then pump those yummy globs of stem cells into anti wrinkle cream, sell it and save the economy. PWNED BEYATCH!!!
@emmbY -
“the actual question is can people question the faith of others around them and stay true to their own faith in jesus christ?” A very good point, I think! And relevant not only to this topic but to many! Could I quote you on that in future blogs on my own site?
Wait, so, Jesus was a zygote, and babies were zygotes, so terminating zygotes means you’re terminating babies means you’re terminating Jesus?
Same thing with John Kerry… I wouldn’t care so much if people just admitted “hey, these are my beliefs are they’re not yours,” but to claim to be one thing and then not live it? We have too many people like that already, and don’t need them in office
Hey there! Did you get my email? Just wondering
I don’t believe that a woman who was violently raped should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term.
Since you’re not a woman, you don’t understand the physical toll that a pregnancy takes on our bodies. You also can’t understand the emotional aspect either.
If I was raped, I would not carry the pregnancy.
In all other “unwanted pregnancy” situations, I FIRMLY support adoption instead. If someone is careless and doesn’t protect themself from pregnancy, then they shouldn’t abort the pregnancy as a way out. They should give that baby to a family that couldn’t otherwise have children.
@emmbY - Perhaps I should clarify. My question is not whether a person can support abortion and still have faith in Jesus Christ, but whether or not that faith would be authentic, i.e. wouldn’t a person be confessing one thing and doing another, when we are asked to have our “yes mean yes and our no mean no.”
@BrowneyedGirl1017 - Yes, but I haven’t had time to read it yet!
@CallMeQuell - Not literally, but in doing so you are ending the life of one more person who would have been another unique revelation of Christ to the world and another potential member of the Body.
@King_of_The_Night - While I do not quite know how to respond to your well-crafted, masterfully argued and presented statement, I will admit that I do not in any way feel “pwned.”
Amen. Amen.
that bill he wants to sign… one of the many reasons obama scares the crap out of me.
@King_of_The_Night - There is no such thing as an “overpopulation problem.” If it’s overcroweded where you are – MOVE.
Do you think that all abortion is wrong? Or just abortion after the first trimester? Abortion during the first trimester would not be ‘murder’, as many people of your opinion might say. Brain activity (and by activity I mean you can actually get a response on an EEG) only begins in the 12th week of pregnancy, and even then the fetus doesn’t actually control anything, not even what you would call ‘involuntary’ functions in a growing human like the lungs (which wouldn’t have finished developing yet) or any of the other major organs (which would also still not have finished developing). And besides, who is anyone to say whether or not abortion is illegal? Making it illegal would only send us back into the old ‘desperate times call for desperate measures’ cliche where women are being found bleeding to death with coat hangers shoved in places coat hangers should never belong. At least if they have a choice you could be saving lives that would potentially be perfect parents further down the road. As for rape victims, well, I think it goes without saying that they deserve to choose for themselves whether to abort, give it up for adoption, or keep it. You may think that pro-choice-ers are trying to force their belief on you, but aren’t you doing the same to them?
For something to be dead, too, it must first be living…I enjoyed reading this though. I only got about halfway through the first time I read it, but I finally finished it. Did you actually send it?
Are you a male? If so, than you wouldn’t know what its like to have an abortion or to not have one.
@Papillon_Mom -
I’m assuming that person was referring to the 6.7 BILLION people in the world, which is far too many. People aren’t going to stop having sex, because not all people are educated. Some people just aren’t religious enough to become completely celibate. That’s their choice. Ah, choice.
You don’t have the right to tell someone that because the condom busted or their birth control didn’t work that they have to give birth to a human that can’t be provided for or supported sufficiently. And you get broken up about how terrible child abuse and neglect is. It’s largely due to the HUGE amount of lower class people who either couldn’t afford abortions or were denied the right to abortion.. and were forced to have children they weren’t prepared for or couldn’t support emotionally or financially.
Stop forcing YOUR religion on other people. Separate church and state; this is America.
@practicetolerance - Every person in the world could fit inside of Jacksonville Florida. Stop spreading lies.
By the way… I’m not forcing my religion on anyone. I’m standing up for the INNOCENT LIFE that you see so fit to MURDER.
Very good blog. As to abortion I have to say I do not support it. In regards to a womans comment above, I too am a woman and I still cannot support abortion if even rape is in the equation. Yes, it would be a very emotionally painful pregnancy but it still would not merrit for a precious life to be terminated.
@Child_of_the_Earth -
sure.
and Ancient_Scribe:to clarify my point, i’m saying that our job as followers in a man who did not judge or discriminate, is not to judge or to choose who is a “professed Christian” or who is an authentic Christian or anything. That is completely disregarding the lessons we are taught as Christians. How about not worrying so much about who’s truly “following Jesus Christ” and just following his example? Just something you should think about.
America is not a strictly Christian country, so i’m not sure how you can expect a presidential candidate to display views that pertain to only your religion.
@practicetolerance -
I agree! From your response I’m assuming you don’t support it as a first-line form of birth control, so we’re on the same page. Ditto on the church/state issue, as well.
@emmbY -
Thanks!
I AM PROLIFE. ABORTION IS SO WRONG. THANK YOU FOR THIS POST.
without revealing how I actually feel about this issue, I would like to play devil’s advocate for a second. I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong. I just want you to think about some things and respond.
1.) There is separation of Church and state. To make a law based solely on religious texts, traditions, dogma, etc. is an abomination of the constitution.
2.) Consider the child. Most (not all, but most) women who get abortions do so not because they want to, but because they are convinced they are neither financially nor emotionally ready to have a child, and therefore it is in the child’s best interest to not enter this world.
2a.) See Stephen Levitt’s (University of Chicago, Economics) article about abortion and crime. It’s in the book Freakonomics, and I’m sure it’s in various online databases as well. His basic argument is that legalized abortion is responsible for the decrease in crime during the 90s
2b.) Some would argue that people should not be having sex (thus risking a pregnancy) until they are financially and emotionally prepared to raise a child. This is a weak argument for two reason
2b1.) Many newly weds are not emotionally nor financially prepared to raise a child, should they not have sex?
2b2.) This is pushing your ideals onto people who may or may not have the same worldview as you. If someone is not a Christian, then what right do you have to forbid them from having sex? The Bible certainly does not support this, nor does their abstinence bring glory to God if they do not acknowledge him.
3.) Consider the mother. Being pregnant, especially giving birth/labor, is extremely taxing on a woman’s body. If, for whatever reason, a woman is not in good enough physical condition to successfully carry the fetus, such that attempting to do so would end up causing considerable damage, possibly death, to either her or the fetus, should she still have to carry it.
4.) Consider the mother and the child. Suppose the mother is a crack addict and doesn’t care about the fetus. If she gives birth, the child will be severely defected and neglected. This goes for all crack babies, coke babies, blue babies, etc.
5.) Consider the circumstances of pregnancy. What if the woman was being responsible and waiting until she was financially and emotionally ready to have a child (which she is currently neither) but was raped and impregnated. See argument 2.
6.) Prohibition led to more deaths from alcohol and, ultimately, little-to-no difference in amount of consumption, only alterations of consumption habits (from more social/healthy to far less healthy consumption habits such as binge drinking). The same has been true for most, arguably all, other drugs, and most, arguably all, other prohibited actions and items. Why would abortion be any different? What about coathangers, back-alley (and unsanitary) abortion clinics, and infanticide? Would those not start rising were abortion prohibited?
7.) The Bible forbids human, especially infant, sacrifice to idols, but where, specifically, does it say that abortion is evil?
Like I said, I like debate, and I’m not going to say one way or the other how I feel about this issue. I just want to see how you respond to those six, fairly common, concerns.
Awesome post!! The Freedom of Choice Act is a scary, scary thing.
May the Lord bless and keep you!
In Him,
Michelle
@King_of_The_Night - hope u feel better now
If you could debate abortion without bringing your god into it, you might actually reach more people.
I don’t belive in your god, and so your entire arguement is lost on me and many people like me.
How can you trust a woman with a baby, if you can’t trust her to make a decision?
Jesus, if I remember it right, refused to get involved with the politics of his day. But that is a whole other comment. While I agree that life begins with conception and abortion is horrible, the decision must be the mother’s. If her life is in danger who can possibly feel self-righteous enough to tell her what she can and cannot do. Not me or anyone I know. If you want to stop abortions then try and reach hearts and help those in bad situations so that they may freely choose life.
@Papillon_Mom -
It’s over crowded everywhere. Fighting for scare resources is merely economics. So as I say, following the great Christian belief of crusading for a fickle deity, kill your neighbor.
@Donna7 -
LOLOLOLOLOL I feel great. How are you?
@Annalovesjustin -
Agreed. Babies are parasitic in nature. Sucking away a woman’s life force, giving her those swollen ankles. Rape is bad, poverty is bad, Organized religion’s bad. Why waste time talking about abortion when they’re are more important issue to discuss?
then I would be able to kill my child. And I don’t think I would be a good mother if I did. I could never forgive myself. And many women find they can’t after an abortion, either, unfortunately.
is it not true that some of us support war?
The bible says thou shall not kill, plain and simple. War is killing, yet I know plenty of christians that willingly cheer for the war on terrorism under bush’s presidency.
So, must we abolish war in America as well?
Just a thought.
Well, for some reason it cut off the first part of my comment. What I was saying was this:
@The_Unwritten_Word - you said, “At least if they have a choice you could be saving lives that would potentially be perfect parents further down the road.” In my opinion, perfect parents don’t kill their children. I can’t see any situation where killing one’s child is a choice that a good parent would make. Obviously, I’ve never been in a truly impossible situation, like maybe torture or starvation, where it seemed my child was better off dead than alive, but even THEN I don’t think I would be able to kill my child. And I don’t think I would be a good mother if I did. I could never forgive myself. And I think there are many women who have that experience after an abortion, too.
@SheWasAPrettyOne - Actually, that’s a really good point. I don’t support war either, but I’m definitely in the minority on that one!.
KEEP YOUR RELIGON AND YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY.
MY BODY
MY CHOICE.
No, but a person can still be a Christian and love another who does condone/practice abortion and not judge. I’m glad for that letter and I hope Barack Obama does get to read it. Thank you for doing a good deed for all and God bless.
Gross.
am a woman.
Regardless of the physical and emotional toll of pregnancy, the tragedy and the physical and emotional toll of an abortion are greater than that of a pregnancy. The female body was made for pregnancy, not for abortion. The hormones are made to adjust naturally during the labor and delivery, not during a chemically altering or physically violent termination of pregnancy.
Your compassion is understandable to these woman in these desperate situations, and something I certainly share. But abortion is simply neither the right end to a wrong done nor even the better end to a woman’s emotional and physical turmoil.
Can you kill a spider? and ant? any small bug? most likely, you have and you do. If you don’t, well people who dont believe in abortion definitely have and do.
Well guess what? Those bugs have more life, more feeling, more sense of awareness than a fetus does. And we kill those bugs everyday. Should we have a anti-bug- killing law? A bill on whether or not we can squish an ant that got into the pantry?? If you think we should–then disregard my argument.
@Annalovesjustin - I am a woman… (and by the way the “since you’re not a woman argument” truly pisses me off. I love how you only use it when it suits you, but when it comes to a woman dying because of a baby it’s like, “Well, what about the husband???”) My question to you is, how is a rape the baby’s fault??
Have you even heard of adoption?
I feel greatly for the woman who was raped. I truly do. I hope she gets the help she needs. But in no way does that mean the baby should be punished.
By the way… I am a woman who cannot have children. I have to adopt. By killing an innocent baby because you were raped by a madman, you are possibly murdering my child… Just a thought.
@SheWasAPrettyOne - The Bible says “murder.” There’s a difference in “kill” and “murder.” To kill in self defense, to defend your family from the onslaught of terrorism, or to allow a government to uphold the death penalty in order to stop a cold blooded murderer in no way compares to taking an innocent life that has not had the chance to even see the world yet.
@homefire - See my comment above to see the difference.
@autobiographer - Not your body. The baby’s body.
I would much rather see a baby born into this world wanted, appreciated, and loved.
It seems like a far greater tragedy to bring a child into this world when it can’t be taken care of and nobody wants to be burdened with it in the first place.
@Papillon_Mom - YOU JUST MADE ME VERY ANGRY. Why don’t you read my ENTIRE comment before you go spouting off like you did:
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I don’t believe that a woman who was violently raped should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term.
Since you’re not a woman, you don’t understand the physical toll that a pregnancy takes on our bodies. You also can’t understand the emotional aspect either.
If I was raped, I would not carry the pregnancy.
In all other “unwanted pregnancy” situations, I FIRMLY support adoption instead. If someone is careless and doesn’t protect themself from pregnancy, then they shouldn’t abort the pregnancy as a way out. They should give that baby to a family that couldn’t otherwise have children.
Posted 10/22/2008 8:27 AM by – reply
1) You responded as if I had told you that YOU were not a woman. I was speaking to the writer of the post.
2) Only using the “you’re not a woman” argument when it suits me? I have NO IDEA what you’re talking about here. I wasn’t even saying that as an argument. I was referring to the poster of this blog! I just don’t see where you’re getting off on attacking me for anything I said.
3) If there was a choice between myself dying or my unborn child. I would die. Let me reiterate: I WOULD DIE. So, don’t go acting like you know me.
4) I have MANY friends who cannot have children or have been TTC for YEARS. I myself had some trouble TTC. So, don’t act like I’m some insensitive bitch here. You really upset me on that one. As if I must obviously know nothing about infertility or adoption.
5) I am a paralegal and worked for an adoption attorney. I know the heartache of the process on a very intimate level.
6) I said in my comment that ADOPTION is the #1 option in all situations besides rape.
7) Some women have severe depression from the hormonal changes during pregnancy and a rape would only exacerbate those feelings. I personally would rather die than carry the child of a man who violently raped me. Emotionally, I could not handle it. And, perhaps you’d like to judge me for that?
8) I’m very sorry that you cannot have children. However, I don’t think you had any right to attack me. I didn’t attack the blogger of this post. I simply stated my opinion. I was not rude or confrontational.
@Annalovesjustin - No attack was intended. I’m sorry you took it that way.
As somone who is a huge advocate of abortion awareness… and know very many men who are advocates as well, I do get really pissed off when women use the term, “You’re a man you can’t understand.” It doesn’t take away from the baby’s rights. The baby doesn’t understand either… that’s who we are sticking up for. Not the woman.
I mean the proverbial “you” in my statement. Again, I’m sorry you took it so personally. Not intended. Regardless, that’s the argument most women use only when it’s convenient.
Again, no personal attack intended. If I’ve offended you, I am sorry. Then again, if offending you saves the life of one more child, then so be it.
fat chance…the man has no conscience…
I hope he reads your letter; very well written and respectful. I am a firm believer in the power of the written word. Great post! I totally agree.
Xanga is showing partiallity by only putting pro-choice blogs on the Featured.
@autobiographer -
I agree with the religion part.
But imagine if your mother made that choice. Or the mother of anyone dear to you made that choice.
I
@tenshii_rage -
If my mother made the choice to get an abortion, I would not exist, and I wouldn’t know or care about it, and she would not have to live the rest of her life with a child she did not WANT to have.
If the mother of anyone dear to me made that choice, I wouldn’t know about it, because they wouldn’t exist, and my life would be completely different, but who’s to say that my life would be better or worse? My life would most likely be pretty much the same. Their mother’s life would be a whole lot better though, seeing as she wouldn’t have to care for a child she did not want to have, nor did she have to put it up for adoption and have to wonder how her child is doing in some hell hole orphanage, or in some foster family or adopted family’s care, or worry about that child coming and finding her even though she wants nothing to do with it.
Abortion is a CHOICE.
Are you a vegetarian? I bet you aren’t. If you’re not a vegetarian then none of you have ANY right to be talking about shit like this because you take lives every fucking day and ingest them. Real cute.
@Papillon_Mom -
A baby? Fucking cell mass is more like it. I’d love to hear your memories of the womb, honey. You were NOTHING BUT A MINDLESS DRONE AND YOU DIDN’T CARE IF YOU LIVED OR DIED. YOU WERE A GOD DAMN PARASITE ONCE. GET THE FUCK OVER IT.
Haha, that block of white looks nice anyways. =]
@tenshii_rage - They [Xanga] are giving way to much freedom of the random posting reccomended blogs…but I guess that’s why it’s “blogging” of what creativity you write and such.
Do you vote for someone based on their view of abortion? (or to vote for someone who make decision base on love?)
what is the most important thing Jesus mentioned in scripture? (LOVE)
Jesus does not judge people on what they do… remember all the people that he hangs out with: sinners of all kind, but he loves them and they love him.
what Jesus would do is to hang out with the “least of these” and show them love and care for them. (you know that we don’t “deserve” Jesus ‘s love “better” than any other people)
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNUHs
@autobiographer - Yes, I’m going to take your word for it because you just REEK of maturity and wisdom…
I do hope you’re picking up on my sarcasm, young lady… Please clean up your mouth before speaking to me again. You just make yourself sound unintelligent.
Banning abortion is a temporary solution to bigger problems like parents ultimately feeling as if they can’t care for their baby that was to be aborted, will be sent in foster home, where many times they are abused, not to mention the psychological effect of neglect children by parents as well. Saying no to abortion based on ethical grounds of murder is a narrow way of fixing the problem, when in fact the issue of teaching people that they should minimize on having children, and should be taught what toll a child can have on their lives.
Nothing bothers me more then a man who feels he has the right to choose what happens to my body when he himself will never have to be in that position. It’s so easy to say what you WOULD do, but having never walked in those shoes, it seems pretty easy for you to sit on top of your little box and preach about what a woman should or should not do based on YOUR beliefs. Forcing that on everyone else, is the most un-American thing I think I have ever heard. What ever happened to our reasons for founding this country- religious freedom and freedom of choice? Yet here we are, voting because of ‘religion’? Have you ever considered how other religions (and *gasp* I know- who would have thought there were other religions outside of Christianity?!) view abortion and when life begins? And don’t you think it’s a bit narrow minded for someone who’s trying so hard to be an intellect to say that your way is the ONLY way of belief and of living?
I hope in the next 16 years, people stop being so judgemental and open their eyes more- before my daughter comes of age and has to deal with all the ignorance that seems to thrive in this world. And I surely hope she still has the choice to do what she feels is right for her own body.
And yes, I’m a happily married woman with 2 children and I still have these views on abortion. Having carried a child inside of me, I can say with absolute certainty that it’s not MY choice to make to force another woman to do the same when that’s not their choice. Nor is it yours. ESPECIALLY as a man who will never, EVER have to deal with this choice about your body.
So sad.
@Papillon_Mom - I disagree- I don’t think any man has the right to make the choices for my body when he, himself will never had to endure something like a pregnancy from a rape. If men were the ones having to go through this, do you really think WE would have any input? Of course not. They wouldn’t let us make choices about their testicles, but they should be allowed to make them about our reproductive issues?
And I was appauled when Palin came out and said she believed that a woman who had been raped should still have to carry the child to term- and now, here you are saying the same thing..? Disgusting. You talk about the baby ‘paying’ for the rape? But the mother doesn’t matter at all? A baby’s life is more important then a mothers? Wow- that’s a warped way of thinking. The fact is, had I of gotten pregnant from my rape at 14 and been forced to have the child, I honestly believe I would have commited suicide. I wasn’t ready at 14 for a child, *especially* a child from something as traumatic as rape. And for you to say that it would be my ‘responcibility’ and I would be ‘damned’ due to not being able to handle that at such a young age- I say you must have had a pretty charmed life to have that opinion. It’s SO easy to judge when you have never walked in that person’s shoes. And again, what gives YOU the right to say what everyone else should do? Not everyone worships your God- the God who tells you time and again to not judge and to be understanding of everyone else’s trials. But you over look that for your own purposes, and that’s just sad. That’s the most un-Christ like thing I can imagine.
If only Christians truly lived like the bible asked you to, this world would be a lot more loving and understanding. Sadly, the narrow minded flourish.
Wow, this post really hit a nerve. That is a beautiful image in your background. A lovely zygote person.
beccabussa::: i agree with u…i mean people talk about the issue of abortion as if it is an easy decision. I don’t think that any woman would make such choice as a casual decision, i think very few women would actually “want” to have an abortion. I believe that women should be the one who are making decisions for themselves. I trust women can take care of themselves and make wise choice.
The idea is to keep it safe and clean, do you know there are girls who are found dead, bleeding, or hangers inside their body???
I would just like to point out that Jesus *or whomever that is a picture of) is facepalming and I find it highly amusing
it really bothers me that a white male would post this. sure, it’s easy for you to be agaisnt abortion. YOU’VE NEVER HAD TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. YOU’VE never been pregnant, alone, scared, had no money & no way to take care of your baby. further, it’s backwards people like you that would make it harder for young women to obtain safe abortions and therefore causing them to have dirty and unsafe abortions.
tell ya what, when you grow a uterus, get pregnant & have no way to care for the child & have to suffer your familys scorn, THEN tell me how you feel about this topic. you know NOTHING of which you speak. how dare you think that you have all the answers? how dare you tell others what they can and cannot do with their own bodies? that doesn’t make you ‘christian’ that makes you a self righteous, pompous, arrogant prick.
if you were a real christian you would follow the teachings of Jesus and be a little more humble, compassionate and understanding. if you’ll recall your sunday school lessons, Jesus spent his time ministering to and healing people that needed it the most NOT STANDING ON A SOAP BOX CONDEMNING OTHERS.
@beccabussa - Wait a minute, wait a minute. First, and foremost, basically you’re telling me that you don’t believe that child is a life. Because yes, men DO have the rights to speak out for the life. When it comes to the baby, it’s no longer your body. (Again, I’m using the proverbial you, so please don’t think I’m coming down on you, personally.) Imagine this scenario. A woman is on trial for the death penalty. She didn’t do it, she’s completely innocent, but she’s blind, deaf, and dumb, unable to defend herself at all. A man steps forward and takes up defense for her. Does she not also have that right???
The baby’s life is not in any way more important than the mother’s. BUT — the mother’s life is not in any way more important than the baby’s, either. They are equal lives. By allowing her to kill that child without at least trying to explain to her that she is, indeed, killing her child, then I would be no worse than if I allowed her to kill one of her children after it was born because that child came from a rape and she had to be reminded daily. What’s the difference? Please, explain to me the difference. Because if you believe in abortion in one circumstance, then it’s justifyable in any circumstance. Either life begins at conception, or it doesn’t. Stopping one person from murdering another doesn’t in any way make me “less Christian,” thank you.
If someone murders another person, they are expected to pay the penalty. I didn’t put that rule in place – God did. Just because someone sins does not mean there won’t be consequences. Now, will I love that woman any less?? No, absolutely not. But I certainly don’t like what she did. My family loves me dearly, but I’ve done a lot of things in my life they don’t like – I don’t like.
Studies show an abortion is more traumatizing on most women than rape. Again, by stopping that, I’m stopping her from yet one more traumatizing incident. There are other options. We are told in the Bible to take the narrow path, so I take “narrow minded” as a compliment, thank you. Jesus loved… but that in no way means He allowed sin. He flat out told people to “go and sin no more.” He loved the person, not the actions, and went so far against some actions that he walked into the temple and turned tables over in anger.
Don’t preach to me about how to be a Christian, please. I may not have it down pat, but I won’t fall for the typical guilt trip when I’m standing up for what’s right.
To the people who believe that banning abortion is correct: how does your dogma justify the mother sometimes dying during delivery? how does your dogma justify the child having a less-than-desirable upbringing? how does your dogma justify the child being born with intractable illness?
Better still, answer this two-thousand year old criticism which every Christian has thus far avoided, or purposefully misinterpreted so that they can drag a red herring across other Christian’s noses:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” (Epicurus, 33 C.E.)
i understand where you are coming from…
i personally think abortion is murder, whether the baby is one week or a couple of months in the womb and i would DEFINITELY not do it.
but i am pro-choice.
i believe that women should choose whether they should keep the baby or not.
whether it is because they are too young, not financially stable to take care of it, raped, or it is affecting their health, women as a large in this world, should have the choice.
i have a friend who had an abortion recently.
i have another friend who is pregnant and ready to give birth.
both of them aren’t even eighteen yet.
but i respect that they each made a decision.
i am not going to judge them because i have no right to tell them what to do.
yes, if a female were to get pregnant and get an abortion, in a way they are taking their mistake out on the baby.
but if they want to not have it, that’s for their own personal reason, not anybody else’s.
i don’t know if i am contradicting myself.
i hope not.
you do realize that making a decision on legislation in this country based in any way upon religious dogma of any kind is a blatant violation of the practice of separation of church and state, right?
you do realize that bringing religion into law that affects every single American, regardless of religious belief, is unconstitutional and defies one of the most important facets of American government, right?
just making sure.
@xaimfortheSTARS:
i love how you “think abortion is murder, whether the baby is one week or a couple of months in the womb” but you are “not going to judge [women] because [you] have no right to tell them what to do.”
if only half of your brain could identify hypocrisy when it stares back at you in the mirror ….
@IamtheWalrus1309:
you do realize that Presidents and other high ranking government officials rely on the votes of the millions who were raised and/or reside in the Bible Belt to swing them ahead of the other candidates?
what happens AFTER the unwanted baby is born?
i believe that you do what feels right to you. i am pro choice, because really, you can’t take away somebody’s choice of who to live. it would not be fair for someone to come to me, and say no you can’t do that, when i feel that it would be for the best of my interest. yes, faiths may say differently, and if you are faithful then do not let anything interfere with that. however, there are plenty of different faiths, and people still do what they want despite what each others faith may be. i am not religious, so does that mean i will not go anywhere when i die? i would not like to be told so. my beliefs are just as strong as someone elses, and it should not be toyed with. so in the end, it really is up to you. there are many different circumstances in which to have an abortion. i believe that even if you are raped, you should still carry out the pregnancy. that is my opinion, i could not live knowing that i killed a potential life. this is where i stand, because i am adopted and if my birth mom chose to have an abortion, i would not be here. i think everyone deserves a chance. but in the rare conditions, ultimately, regardless of faith, it is the mother’s choice, and nobody should be judging her. in my eyes, i think everyone knows the consequence of their choices. but in real life, deciding is the hardest thing sometimes, but you have to choose. just be able to accept whatever you choose to do. faith should not matter. it is a way of living that we follow a faith. sometimes questioning your faith happens, and either you lose it, or follow it. i think i understand where obama stands. if we let people choose their own path, it gives freedom and with freedom we learn from our mistakes so that we can live a better life. taking away someone’s control over their life, restricts living and learning. maybe if everyone just sat back and stopped fighting about issues, there would be room for compromise. but we let our beliefs get in the way of reality. very interesting post.
FETUS!!!!
If abortion were to become illegal, it would be bringing religion and rtate together, which isn’t right. It’s not the governments vagina, it’s my own. You can’t make the decision for all women in the U.S. We have the right over our own bodies.
@Papillon_Mom - just out of curiosity, where is that difference made in the Bible? I have never been able to pin it down. I realize that is the prevailing view, but I have never been able to feel sure of it.
After reading all of this, one thing strikes me. To those of you who are not Christian, I can understand perfectly why you might think abortion is fine. Without God, right and wrong is pretty subjective, and can be set according to your own whims.
For those who are Christian and have believed that abortion is okay, you should be aware that God demanded the death penalty for causing a woman to miscarry. In Exodus 21:22-23, it says, “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,”
It doesn’t even say that the injury to the woman had to be deliberate. If the child or mother died during the early birth, the person who caused it was to be put to death. I realize that we are no longer under the old law, but it’s still sobering. I’m just saying that Christians need to know that this is what true justice would be under God’s law.
I also was amazed at the number of people who commented that “not allowing” them to get an abortion was un-Christian. Believe me, we’d try to keep you from killing yourself or anyone else, too! This isn’t all about babies! It’s about life instead of death, which is what Christianity is ALL about! It’s because we care about you. (I feel like the mother of a teenager, here…
)
@homefire - Hmmm… sounds like post material!! Haha!
Let me do some studying. I will get back to you. Because off the top of my head, I don’t know the passages that talk about it.
With you being male, I don’t think it’s up to you to decide what to do with my body.
But, with that being said, I think your post is very well argued, despite that I don’t agree with it. I’m glad that you recognize that many people believe that a life is not a life until it is born. It shows that you researched your claims and you back up your argument. Very well thought out. I’ve been fighting hard to understand why people would solely vote for a President JUST on their stance on abortion. With that being said, just for discussion here and me trying to understand, do you know the other issues on McCain’s agenda? Do you advocate not voting for Obama for his stance on abortion? This isn’t meant to be inflammatory, but to me, it seems some faith-based voters would vote a dog into office if it said it was against abortion. Do you feel that by voting for faith that we’re making the right choice for President? How is McCain who says he’ll overturn Roe v. Wade going to make the country better after doing that?
However, I will say, this country is made up of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Non-Believers and more. Therefore, I don’t think that it’s right that we instill Christian values into the government. Obama may infact be Christian and believe that abortion isn’t the right choice. But, you fail to realize that he is acting in the best interest of ALL Americans (again, who are NOT just Christian) by signing that bill. Christians very quickly forget that they are not the leaders of this country and are not always right.
Again, not meant to be a mean post, I’m just trying to “see the other side”.
to make abortion illeagal would be to force your convictions on every person, regardless of their beliefs. though our current government has tried its best to make everyone believe that we are living in a “christian” country the truth is that every faith is welcome in this country. abortion is not morally wrong in judaism, nor is it to many atheists or agnostics. the word that you are not understanding, that many pro-lifers do not understand, is choice. choice does not mean abortion in every case. any good “abortion clinic” would council women in all of their options, all of their choices. one of the choices happens to be abortion. the main problem with your argument is that by taking away this right from women you will be taking away basic human rights. until this country becomes a theocracy it is wrong to force all people to abide by one religion’s (and not one religion as a whole, i am a christian that is pro-choice) stance. i don’t want to say that you have no right to express your opinion, and you did try to do that in a gentle manner which is more than i can say for most pro-lifers, but i don’t believe you have a right to enforce that opinion. if it is morally wrong for you than don’t let it happen to the people around you who agree with you but please don’t make the people who actually want a real choice, not the choice between keeping a possibly unwanted child or giving up for adoption, live by your standards.
@homefire:
Where did you learn about the world? In the neighborhood church’s pulpit?
Here is a direct quote of your convictions. “Without God, right and wrong is pretty subjective, and can be set according to your own whims.”
First of all, the God of which you speak is the Judeo/Christian God. Yet the majority of people alive today worship a different God(s) or do not worship God(s) at all (Atheism, Shamanism, Spiritualism, Agnostics, et cetera).
To say that without your God, right and wrong is set according to personal whims is historically incorrect, psychologically incorrect, anthropologically incorrect …. shit, even advertisers and salesmen know that is incorrect. If right and wrong was so subjective, there would be no mass appeal in commercials and sales pitches.
Second of all, the Bible contains more ethical contradictions and infractions against today’s ethical standards than most other texts. The Bible is completely sexist for one. It sometimes justifies rape and incest. It promotes capital punishment without a fair trial by jury. There are many other things but I am sure you will find some ridiculous way of justifying all of those “mistakes.”
While I think your post is a very good one and has a very good point(to an extent) Im going to lend my opinion. Choose to read or not, choose to respond or not. Makes no difference to me. Firstly as a disclaimer Im going to put in that I am a mother of a beautiful son and the thought never crossed my mind to end my pregnancy even though Im only 20 years old and my husband would be leaving us for war. With that said Id like to say this. (And in NO WAY am I trying to sound mean nor am I trying to justify abortions this is just my opinion.). First off and most importantly I think is that youre a man. You do not have to carry that little being inside of you for 10 months/40wks(or in my case 41). You dont know the emotional toll it takes on a women nor the fact that at a certain point in ones pregnancy you start to feel less and less human as the days progress on. You dont have to go through the hours of labor(25 in my case) that women do nor feel the pain that comes with not only labor but episiotomy,hemroids,bleeding,filling of the breasts(it hurts believe me),drying up of the milk(hurts worse than filling) and ultimatly the whole healing process. You dont have to go through ANY of that. Now playing devils advocate to myself one could say that people should take birth control and be more careful. YES, BUT what about those people who were raped and are in no way emotionally,physically,mentally,or financially ready for a child? They didnt have a choice in the matter. Some MAN found it okay to whip out his manhood and shove it into some poor women. Getting her pregnant. She’s not going to get the financial backing from him is she? NO.
Secondly I have to say this: A women finds out through tests and ultrasounds that her child has a birth defect that would ultimatly kill them soon after birth. No way to repair this defect. Why should a women carry out this pregnancy just to watch her child suffer after birth and sadly die? I know that during an abortion the fetus feels stress and pain but it is by no means suffering as much as a full grown infant would. It doesnt comprehend pain the way an infant does. So why I ask you should a mother carry out this pregnancy just to watch her joy be ripped from her and watch her poor helpless baby lay in pain and die. Let me tell you since you will never be a mother(not trying to sound mean but stating the obvious) when my child cries for whatever reason it hurts me to watch. When he goes in for his well child visits and shots and he lays there screaming and crying I cry with him because he’s helpless and there is no way I can make him feel better. Holding him doesnt work, baby tylonal,nothing. So all I can do is sit and pray that his pain goes away and eventually it does but all the while hes hurting which makes me hurt for him. I couldnt imagine sitting there watching him in an incubator crying in pain that I couldnt nor anyone else could fix. Why make a mother or a child go through that when she could terminate the pregnancy easily and try for another healthy baby. Again playing devils advocate all babies do deserve a chance to live buuut what about cruel or unusual? Its cruel to make a person suffer. End of story.
Personally I am a christian,with strong christian beliefs, but I do not agree that its okay to make a person suffer. Nor do I agree with the over turning of roe v wade. Do you know how many deaths there would be on a whole if the right to a womens body and her right to do with it as she pleases is taken away by taking abortion away? MILLIONS. Why? People would resort to more dangerous,uncontrolled methods of ending their pregnancies.Wire hangers, drugs, you name it they’ll try it. A women should not be forced to do something she doesnt want to do. Then again I also do not think abortions should be used as a means of birth control either. People like that deserve to have there productive organs taken away…end of story. I understand youre entitled to your own oppinion as am I and I thought I would share mine with you and I hope that you do respond to it because I am interested in your thoughts on this. Again none of this was meant to be mean but I just wanted to share a womens point of view with you on many issues surrounding abortion for a women.
Wait so then why arent pre borns in the consensus if they are people, why don’t people have funerals when women miss carry? Also 80% of fertalized eggs naturally dont attatch themselves to the uterus wall so does that mean most women are murders regardless(in your view)?
And do you have any adopted children, have you ever been to an adoption clinic in the inner city? Have you seen a crack baby? have you seen babies that are born with horrible abnormalities that die with in hours of birth that have a high chance of killing the mother durning natural birth.
I mean it seems more and more of these debates come from religious people, I know you feel you must control everyone’s life why not worry about yourself? You have no right telling someone else who is in a possition that you will never understand what to do with their bodies end of story.
Ps. why are christians so against abortion but when the babies become adults they seem to be for sending those grown up babies to die in the name of your lord?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
” I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
-François-Marie Arouet
wow, this turned into a battlezone mighty quickly.
i’d just like to say that until you have to make the decision to abort or not for yourself, quit complaining.
Wonderful message, well written. If only more people felt that way….
(no, I don’t know you but I saw this linked off the main page.)
Religion, faith.. whatever you need to consider yourself moral, you refuse to see that we are animals, beasts in the spiritual sense, whose first instinct is, as it should be, survival. Better to sacrifice the not-yet-alive than the living. I’m not saying abortion isn’t wrong. I’m just saying it is no worse than war or criminal justice. God has already stricken us all dead. We are born on death row…
Ugh…I guess if you believe abortion is THE issue, that would explain why so many are so easily duped by many Republican politicians who cater to the Pro-Life movement in order to solidify their grip on power, without any intention to make serious changes to Roe v. Wade. I understand the passion over the issue (I’m pro-life myself), but can no longer allow myself to vote for Republicans who manipulate pro-”life” supporters. You may believe that abortion is the one all-encompassing issue, but I guarantee you the Republican power-brokers don’t see it that way. If they did, this country wouldn’t be in the mess it’s in today.
Compassionate conservatism had it’s chance to impress and win over nation at the beginning of this decade – instead our “great” conservative president has won over the title of worst president in modern history (at least to many Americans, including myself and I voted for him).
I’m voting for Barack Obama for president with a tepidly cautious hope that he won’t sign the FOC Act. I’ve already started lobbying him and will start on my other representatives soon. If he and the Democrats flub it like the Republicans have this decade, then I’ll be first in line in 2010 to give the House of Representatives back to Republicans.
Of all the things I would hope that faith can teach us, it’s that this world God created is rarely black and white. We may think we’ve got it all figured out beyond any doubt, buuuutttttt…..we don’t.
obama is not campaigning an abortion. he is not telling everybody to go out and get one. he is not saying it is the right thing to do. what obama is saying by supporting pro choice is that it is not his nor any other “officials” position to decide what mothers will do with their unborn babies. who are we as people to try to ENFORCE a LAW of “christianity” amongst other people. christianity is about choice as well is it not? god made our lives but it’s in the things we choose to do in our every day actions, such as discipleship, praises, etc, that make the foundation of our religion.
Obama has done things to help people such as sponsoring Senate Bill 707 to reduce preterm births and reduce infant mortality.
ok, so you may be against abortion, but you want to make it illegal so anyone who is pro-choice can’t get one? good way to have some respect. NOT EVERYONE WHO IS PRO-CHOICE IS FOR ABORTION. i don’t think the government should be telling me what i can and can’t do with my body.
to all individuals who consider this to be wrong: dont have an abortion. law shouldnt determine whether or not you CAN have one, but the individual sure should be able to decide. i’m pro-choice and anti-abortion. two separate issues, legal and moral. they cant co-exist in this society, or we then become a religious state.
I can’t read your blog without wanting to gouge my eyes out with a pitchfork. In fact the only part I could stand was the text highlighted in white. Black on blue isn’t good for the eye.
Hey, at least you don’t have Comic Sans as your font. Fix your layout.
Considering that you are a man, not a woman and will never get pregnant – it is very easy for you to say this. Men should not have any say in what a woman does with her body as they can and will never go through what we must during pregnancy and therefore their opinion is essentially invalid.
As for your ‘Christian’ beliefs, not everyone follows them and if I wanted an abortion, I quite frankly would not care if you, or your God, believed it was wrong or not.
I am pro-choice.
Now that you’ve got the swearing out of the way… let me tell you why.
I believe that abortion is wrong, but I believe that to ban it’s existence is not just wrong, but vile, evil, reprehensible and despicable. If you return to the times before Roe v. Wade, you will be placing more undo suffering on the unfortunate persons who find themselves needing to make a decision of this magnitude in the first place. Thanks to funding provided by previous administrations, the options for women are greater… and the options are not just to be… or not to be. The counseling is more affordable and available, and as Unwritten Word already said, the safety of the mother… not just the child, is at stake if the ruling is over turned. It is unfortunate when circumstance call for abortion, but I believe that it is essential to provide the highest level of care to be sure that all can be done to safeguard the mother.
Also, for those interested… Cindy McCain has voiced her opinion on the issue and thinks that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned. You can see the interview here: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/04/cindy-roe-wade-overturned/
@siruskane -
I do see a distinction between pro-choice policies and pro-abortion ones, despite the fact that I am pro-life. Although I am against the Freedom of Choice Act, there is one point that strikes me as something that even most pro-choice people would be against–the age limit for abortions. If the Freedom of Choice Act passes, then minors under 18 will be able to procure abortions without having to tell their parents. There are all kinds of things wrong with this! Including the continuation of sexual abuse against minors and further allowing young men to escape responsibility for the child. How is *that* supposed to protect the mother?
Meanwhile, if it’s really about choice, why don’t we start also to increase funding to adoption agencies and crisis pregnancy centers?
@golden__cigarettes -
There is always adoption.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Obama can’t stand on both sides of the fence. Either he clarify his views on his own christianity, or he should profess no spiritual claim, seeing as how his stance is very unchristianlike. Thou shalt not kill…what part of that does he find hard to understand? God does not make exceptions to his law.
this was the same question i asked myself about obama. I like him as a person, but I just didn’t understand his view on abortion. This letter was nicely put together and I hope you send it to him. Who knows? Maybe he’ll get a chance to read it.
I’ll give you the stamps to mail the letter! Fantasticf point and I couldn’t agree more!
Seems like you hit a hornets nest here, Scribe. I’ve not seen this many comments on any of your posts in the past…
I have to place myself again in the pro-choice arena, as I’ve told you before, only in the cases of extreme circumstances like rape or incest. I, like siruskane, think the safest thing for all involved is to have it mandated by the state to keep mothers healthy in the process and not move back to pre-abortion days. I also believe doctors should have a choice in performing the procedures, though. Just because it is mandated by the government doesn’t mean someone who has problems performing the procedure should be forced to.
That’s just my two-cents…
Did you hear they’ll be doing another Robot Chicken Star Wars special soon? I don’t have official dates on it, but I’m pretty excited. Those sketches were pretty good from the last one.
Also, BSG is coming back in January for the final 10 episodes. How cool is that?
Well, hope you have a great week!
@maje —> “Why don’t we start also to increase funding to adoption agencies and crisis pregnancy centers?”
There are increases, though not nearly enough in my opinion. As for lack of parental oversight, that is a line that, were I drafting the legislation, I would take out. I think that until a person reaches the age of Majority by national standards, a decision of this magnitude should involve the doctors, the parents, and the child.
@mRsbRoWnEyEs —> Thou shalt not kill…what part of that does he find hard to understand?
First thing’s first, let’s be sure we’re talking about the same commandment. Kill, in the English language is a sort of blanket term that covers the ceasing of life in all forms, that involves the death of one entity at the hands of another. The original Hebrew word “harag” would have been what was used for this kind of inference. What was used in its original language was the word Hebrew word “ratsah” which means “murder,” or only criminal acts of killing. Further, the Bible does not specifically say anything about abortion, nor does it talk about when the fetus becomes a person. These are all terms and descriptions that have been applied to the medical development of a fetus.
Again, let me be clear… I am pro-choice, but that does not mean that whenever this horrible act is perpetrated, I wring my hands and laugh maniacally because of the glee it brings. It is deplorable, awful and the worst of worst cases that any of the blessed children. It is a sad, depressing but necessary evil, for as I said, in cases where the mother is physically incapable of bringing the child to term. There are also cases where the trauma of how the child was conceived can be carried over and related to the abuse of the child were it to be born. Incest and rape are two examples of these dread circumstances. To outlaw the practice would as previously mentioned revert the procedure to back allies, barbaric clinics, and extravagant costs laid on an already stressed and strapped family.
I do hope that this issue, while important, is not the only issue that you are basing your selection of a candidate around. There are many issues, not the least of which are the War in Iraq, the Economy, Health Care, Education, and of course the stance on Abortion. I encourage you all to take those issues with equal importance when selecting your candidate on November the 4th.
I’ve missed hearing from you.
I’ve decided to go through RCIA next fall. I’m really looking forward to it. I have yet to tell my parents, but I’m pretty much positive I’m going to do it.
I hope all is well. I’m thinking of you.
This is beautiful. I commend you, though I know you didn’t write it for praise. I am sure God is glad to see you doing such good. I know I am. Bless you.
Isn’t God also a pro-choice proponent?
I am not a religious person, for reasons too numerous to address. I do, however, enjoy a good debate and learning what I can from both sides of it. What I have learned about the Catholic (and, more generally, the Christian) God is that He has given mankind free will. He does not force upon them an instilled faith in His countenance. He encourages those who believe to present an amiable face for Him to those who do not believe, in the hopes that they can be convinced by such a demonstration. Despite His omnipotence, He has created life that does not follow His dogma.
Temptation exists in this world, abundant and accessible. God could remove such temptation, but allows it to exist, does He not?
@Automaton_Emotion - God, it seems to me, is “pro-choice” insofar as he has given us the freedom to make choices. You are correct in this, that God has given all mankind a free will. He does not force anything upon us and doesn’t make us do anything. He does desire all people to come to him, to believe in him, and he does encourage those of us who believe in him to love those who don’t in the hope that, by the believer’s love, the non-believer may come to know the love of God and love him in turn.
Does this gift of free will mean that God has created life that does not follow his “dogma?” Not at all. Dogma is a human thing, truths that we have come to know that are given authority from God through the Church. He has given us his laws (the Ten Commandments, for example) and certainly many people do not follow them. Is that God’s fault? Nope! It’s ours. Yes, he gave us the gift of free will, but it is the person that choses to abuse that gift, using it to chose against God, their creator who loves them. If you bought me a gun, gave it to me, and years later I decided to shoot my friend and kill them, is it your fault? Is it the store’s fault for letting you buy it? The manufacturer’s for making it? etc.
Temptation exists in the world and is very abundant. But ultimately temptation cannot MAKE us do anything; it is the person that decides to cooperate with it, to give in to it. Certainly God could wave his hand and remove it completely. Why doesn’t he?
Because he gave us free will, and he has respected that since the very beginning. He permits temptation because, unless our will is totally free, we cannot love him freely. If he were to rid the world of temptation, to render us completely incapable of sinning, then we would have no choice but to love him. But that wouldn’t be love, because love must be freely given in order to be true. So he permits temptation, though it causes us much suffering (or rather, we cause ourselves to suffer much through it) so that the possibility of loving him freely and loving eachother freely may yet remain.
I hope that helps a little.
To say that you are pro choice but not pro abortion is absolute lunacy. To be “pro choice” can encompass anything. You can be pro-gay rights, pro- animal rights, or pro-abortion. Pro abortion people like to use the phrase “pro choice” because it somewhat covers up and sanitizes the disgusting truth of what it really is. If you think abortion is okay then WHY try to clean it up? I will NEVER use the term “pro choice.” If you are of that persuasion concerning this topic YOU ARE PRO ABORTION. PERIOD.
@autobiographer -
First, let me say I’m not here to argue for one side of the abortion debate or the other, or anything in between. But I did want to talk about a couple of the points you made.
“KEEP…YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY.
MY BODY
MY CHOICE.”
– But what about cases when the government imposes other laws “on your body”? For example, the government prohibits me from using MY FINGER to pull a trigger on a loaded gun when it’s aimed at somebody. The government prohibits me from putting MY hands on another human without their consent. The government prohibits me from doing a lot of things. Why, because I would (in many cases) be harming or infringing the rights of another human being who is protected under these rights (granted, there are a lot of laws, and many go beyond this, but I just want to address these basic ones that almost everyone agrees with). The point with abortion is that the debate comes down to whether or not the fetus (at whatever stage of development) is a human being deserving of these rights. If either side of the debate hasn’t addressed this issue, then neither the “my body my choice” or the “abortion is murder” arguments make any sense. If the fetus is deserving of those rights, then what you are killing is not your body. But if the fetus is not deserving of those rights, then abortion is not murder, and the government is imposing itself upon innocent women.
“If you’re not a vegetarian then none of you have ANY right to be talking about shit like this because you take lives every fucking day and ingest them.”
– Technically, vegetables are alive too. If you eat them, somebody had to kill a plant. If you eat anything, then something has to die. Even if they weren’t, one could make a case that the protection of human life is what we ought to be concerned about, and put animals on a different standard. It really comes down to one’s ethical standards, and proving those. Then you could also say that those who use anti-bacterial soap are killing bacteria, and so and and so forth.
My point with these responses is not to “debunk” the pro-choice position. One can be pro-choice and have problems with accepting those arguments without accepting these arguments or not accepting them as complete. It’s just that I don’t see them convincing somebody of your position. Granted, it’s not that all the other comments on here, or the comments of the poster are necessarily flawless. I don’t mean to come across as picking out yours as the only one I have a disagreement with; I’m just hoping to try to add to the discussion.
I would be curious about your interpretation and opinions on Exodus 21:22-23. I have heard people interpret this passage differently, and the different interpretations have radically different applications. Most texts that I’ve encountered read, “so that she gives birth prematurely”, or something very similar to that. In this case, the “harm done” in these verses seem to speak of the fetus/baby, and from the laws people have interpreted pro-life conclusions from this.
But I’ve also heard some say that the proper translation/interpretation should be that, “so that she has a miscarriage”. In this case, it seems to speak the that “harm done” is to the mother (because it doesn’t make sense to have different scenarios for whether harm was done if the baby was actually miscarried– only one option is possible if that was the case), and the laws are regarding whether or not she was hurt, but the fetus/baby does not matter. So I’ve heard people say that this indicates a pro-choice conclusion.
Then you have the KJV that says “so her fruit depart from her”, which tends to sound more like the former, but as far as I could tell could go either way.
Personally, I don’t really know myself. I realize that there are a lot of different laws in the books of Moses that consider very rare occurrences (e.g. what to do if a man is cutting wood and the ax head flies off and kills another man), but I’m guessing that it would be much more common for two fighting men to hurt a woman and cause her to miscarry than it would be for them to send her into labor. Then again, the example of the ax head seems super rare as well, so I don’t think that necessarily proves anything.
I love how you seem so passionate about this, yet you aren’t insulting people as so many others find it necessary to do when debating / arguing / discussing these kinds of issues.
@pillowpixies - There won’t be any reconciliation in this if it isn’t spoken of and dealt with in love with much compassion. Insults and hatred… that’s like trying to heal someone by throwing rocks at them. I am glad that you are of the same attitude.
God bless you!
It’s refreshing to see that I’m not the only one who believes that. (: God bless you too.